Meme #4 - clothes, and character tropes
Dec. 10th, 2014 08:26 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ravenAfter a short break, we're back. frayadjacent asked me two things!
-Clothes! Whatever you feel like saying about them.
Clothes! I love clothes and I think I pretty much always have. As a teenager, I was super-awkward and convinced I was hideous - and, in retrospect, fighting some kind of internal war against my own queerness - and it took me quite a long time to actually start dressing in ways that made me happy and suited me. Part of it's been growing up, and partly it's been the privilege of disposable income, of course. (Something that's nice: here in my late twenties, I've actually started seeing myself in the mirror. It's funny how that works. I never could see myself in my reflection, and now I can: the girl in the mirror with the hipster glasses is definitely the same person who lives inside. It's nice.)
So, anyway, things I like! I like dresses, usually short ones with tights and boots (in winter) or sandals (in summer). I really like natural fabrics; I love brushed cotton, real leather, and wool. I like everything cut femme - lace necklines; frock coats; A-line skirts - except sometimes I like really chunky, military-ish boots to go with them. I don't wear trousers, except for jeans. I wear a lot of red and black and deep colours in general; I'm brown and I dress accordingly, mostly. I have some wardrobe staples that I really love, like my winter coat, which is out of the cupboard again - it's a black frock coat with a copper lining (though the autumn-spring coat is a brightly coloured flower-print on black confection from Desigual, and I like it a lot too); and my handbag is this gorgeous brown soft leather satchel (from Rowallan, I think?) that holds a tablet, a book and all the rest of my crap, and cheers me up every time I pick it up.
And, you know, I do think clothes are important as armour. it's very easy to think you're a bad queer or a bad feminist for loving clothes, but that's such nonsense, I'm finding. I used to hate dressing for work when I was a trainee, because I hate "traditional" office clothes - I hate suits and and I hate synthetic fabrics and I hate the way women's shirts are always tailored for women who a) are significantly taller and b) have rather more up top than me - and rather cathartically gave all my old work outfits to Oxfam when I qualified. I now work somewhere with no real dress code and have enjoyed watching my clothes and aesthetic settle into something that makes me happy, and makes me feel like myself and like I can really take on my life and everything in it every day. That's worth having.
Also: what are your favorite character types and/or story tropes? I.e. tell me about sad robots and other things.
Aha, you know me well! I love sad robots (and I was very much in a sad robot place whenfrayadjacent visited) - because... well. I suppose, the character and story trope I love is the story of almost, but not quite. Characters who look like they ought to be part of their communities, but for one reason or another, are balanced on some sort of edge (see Commander Data; Breq from Ancillary Justice; Simon Illyan; Remus Lupin, oh my god) between belonging and not.
(Actually, I'm not sure if my love for this trope or Remus came first. Oh, Remus! I love him so, so much, and still.)
Other things! I love characters who act as human moral compasses (see: Daniel Jackson; Toby Ziegler; Spock, who is not human but whatever). I think off that list of characters I imprinted on it at an early age, but I love it like burning. Both the fact of it - all those characters have their counterparts, Jack and Bartlett and Kirk, who love them and trust them so much that they're willing to be guided like this - and the narrative weight of flipping the trope over. (Take Stargate SG-1, a show I adore but has no shortage of wacky plots and cheesy tropes and just general ridiculousness, that turns around and gives you an otherwise unremarkable episode, "Serpent's Song", in which Daniel tries to commit a murder and is stopped by Jack. It's completely devastating and it's because of this trope.)
Unsurprisingly, I also love friendship tropes and everything that comes with them, often more than I like romantic tropes. I love best-friends-since-childhood (Marauders!); I love friends in adversity; I especially love adversaries-becoming friends (Hawkeye Pierce and Margaret Houlihan are my favourite example of this! So perfect).
The thing that’s my number one thing, though: characters who have to do a thing, because, ultimately, there are no good choices left. The ones who fight to the bitter end; who die gracefully; who jump off the roof in each other’s arms (oh, Amy and Rory!). And relatedly, characters who sacrifice part of themselves, for something greater than themselves. Witness Benjamin Sisko, standing up at the end of "In The Pale Moonlight", telling the camera that if that's all it took - just that he lied; that he cheated; that all it took was the self-respect of one Starfleet officer, well: "I can live with it. I can live with it." And Tuvok, compromising his own (Vulcan!) ethics so Janeway, whom he loves, won't have to (“Someone had to spare you the ethical dilemma. I was the logical choice.") And Rupert Giles (“She’s a hero. She’s not like us.”) And Aral Vorkosigan ("You don't remember the first time.") There's also Leonard McCoy, who carries his friend's soul around in his head; Hawkeye again, who will not touch a gun ("Why are they bombing us? We're already bombed!"); and Ned Mathey, who lets himself be arrested for sodomy, to save the life of a man he wishes were dead. No good choices, and they still choose.
I just – moral courage is the thing that destroys me. What I want, actually, is to see this trope much much more in women. Leslie Knope is as good as an example as she can be, from a sitcom (e.g., that episode where she's on rollerskates filibustering to save the votes of the people who are out to destroy her!) and Hermione Granger putting a memory charm on her own parents comes to mind, but, urgh, needs more ladies.
(Actually, the very best example I can think of a lady fitting this trope - Code Name Verity. And now I'm sad.)
frayadjacent asked me two things!-Clothes! Whatever you feel like saying about them.
Clothes! I love clothes and I think I pretty much always have. As a teenager, I was super-awkward and convinced I was hideous - and, in retrospect, fighting some kind of internal war against my own queerness - and it took me quite a long time to actually start dressing in ways that made me happy and suited me. Part of it's been growing up, and partly it's been the privilege of disposable income, of course. (Something that's nice: here in my late twenties, I've actually started seeing myself in the mirror. It's funny how that works. I never could see myself in my reflection, and now I can: the girl in the mirror with the hipster glasses is definitely the same person who lives inside. It's nice.)
So, anyway, things I like! I like dresses, usually short ones with tights and boots (in winter) or sandals (in summer). I really like natural fabrics; I love brushed cotton, real leather, and wool. I like everything cut femme - lace necklines; frock coats; A-line skirts - except sometimes I like really chunky, military-ish boots to go with them. I don't wear trousers, except for jeans. I wear a lot of red and black and deep colours in general; I'm brown and I dress accordingly, mostly. I have some wardrobe staples that I really love, like my winter coat, which is out of the cupboard again - it's a black frock coat with a copper lining (though the autumn-spring coat is a brightly coloured flower-print on black confection from Desigual, and I like it a lot too); and my handbag is this gorgeous brown soft leather satchel (from Rowallan, I think?) that holds a tablet, a book and all the rest of my crap, and cheers me up every time I pick it up.
And, you know, I do think clothes are important as armour. it's very easy to think you're a bad queer or a bad feminist for loving clothes, but that's such nonsense, I'm finding. I used to hate dressing for work when I was a trainee, because I hate "traditional" office clothes - I hate suits and and I hate synthetic fabrics and I hate the way women's shirts are always tailored for women who a) are significantly taller and b) have rather more up top than me - and rather cathartically gave all my old work outfits to Oxfam when I qualified. I now work somewhere with no real dress code and have enjoyed watching my clothes and aesthetic settle into something that makes me happy, and makes me feel like myself and like I can really take on my life and everything in it every day. That's worth having.
Also: what are your favorite character types and/or story tropes? I.e. tell me about sad robots and other things.
Aha, you know me well! I love sad robots (and I was very much in a sad robot place when
frayadjacent visited) - because... well. I suppose, the character and story trope I love is the story of almost, but not quite. Characters who look like they ought to be part of their communities, but for one reason or another, are balanced on some sort of edge (see Commander Data; Breq from Ancillary Justice; Simon Illyan; Remus Lupin, oh my god) between belonging and not.(Actually, I'm not sure if my love for this trope or Remus came first. Oh, Remus! I love him so, so much, and still.)
Other things! I love characters who act as human moral compasses (see: Daniel Jackson; Toby Ziegler; Spock, who is not human but whatever). I think off that list of characters I imprinted on it at an early age, but I love it like burning. Both the fact of it - all those characters have their counterparts, Jack and Bartlett and Kirk, who love them and trust them so much that they're willing to be guided like this - and the narrative weight of flipping the trope over. (Take Stargate SG-1, a show I adore but has no shortage of wacky plots and cheesy tropes and just general ridiculousness, that turns around and gives you an otherwise unremarkable episode, "Serpent's Song", in which Daniel tries to commit a murder and is stopped by Jack. It's completely devastating and it's because of this trope.)
Unsurprisingly, I also love friendship tropes and everything that comes with them, often more than I like romantic tropes. I love best-friends-since-childhood (Marauders!); I love friends in adversity; I especially love adversaries-becoming friends (Hawkeye Pierce and Margaret Houlihan are my favourite example of this! So perfect).
The thing that’s my number one thing, though: characters who have to do a thing, because, ultimately, there are no good choices left. The ones who fight to the bitter end; who die gracefully; who jump off the roof in each other’s arms (oh, Amy and Rory!). And relatedly, characters who sacrifice part of themselves, for something greater than themselves. Witness Benjamin Sisko, standing up at the end of "In The Pale Moonlight", telling the camera that if that's all it took - just that he lied; that he cheated; that all it took was the self-respect of one Starfleet officer, well: "I can live with it. I can live with it." And Tuvok, compromising his own (Vulcan!) ethics so Janeway, whom he loves, won't have to (“Someone had to spare you the ethical dilemma. I was the logical choice.") And Rupert Giles (“She’s a hero. She’s not like us.”) And Aral Vorkosigan ("You don't remember the first time.") There's also Leonard McCoy, who carries his friend's soul around in his head; Hawkeye again, who will not touch a gun ("Why are they bombing us? We're already bombed!"); and Ned Mathey, who lets himself be arrested for sodomy, to save the life of a man he wishes were dead. No good choices, and they still choose.
I just – moral courage is the thing that destroys me. What I want, actually, is to see this trope much much more in women. Leslie Knope is as good as an example as she can be, from a sitcom (e.g., that episode where she's on rollerskates filibustering to save the votes of the people who are out to destroy her!) and Hermione Granger putting a memory charm on her own parents comes to mind, but, urgh, needs more ladies.
(Actually, the very best example I can think of a lady fitting this trope - Code Name Verity. And now I'm sad.)
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no subject
on 2014-12-10 10:00 pm (UTC)- Yesss, I have had this kind of realisation in the past few months/years. I am actually this person with the long hair and the smooshy tummy. :)
I'm just about getting to the point where I can tell what clothes fit and suit me, but not quite.
no subject
on 2014-12-11 09:12 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 02:52 am (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 09:11 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 04:03 am (UTC)*sobs* (But it hurts in such a good way.)
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on 2014-12-11 09:09 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 05:06 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 09:11 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-12 06:53 pm (UTC)Tuvok feeliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiings. /o\
no subject
on 2014-12-15 11:31 am (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 03:29 am (UTC)And yes to moral courage as a desirable trait in characters, but oh, dear, it can hurt.
PS: I really like your clothes question and, um, might steal it for my own pedtm.
no subject
on 2014-12-11 11:09 am (UTC)(Hurrah! I look forward to hearing your thoughts on clothes, they’re one of my favourite topics. :))
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on 2014-12-11 04:05 pm (UTC)Thank you!
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on 2014-12-11 07:09 am (UTC)Your style, though! It sounds glorious. I love the combination of skirts and chunky boots and envy that you own Desigual pieces. Are there women whom women's clothes fit? I'm not sure I know very many of them.
Characters who look like they ought to be part of their communities, but for one reason or another, are balanced on some sort of edge (see Commander Data; Breq from Ancillary Justice; Simon Illyan; Remus Lupin, oh my god) between belonging and not. Yes, yes, yes. I share a deep fondness for ALL FOUR of these characters.
I won't pick apart this entire entry for all the glory, but trust that I found plenty of it here. :)
no subject
on 2014-12-11 09:08 pm (UTC)Also I am delighted you love Data, Breq, Remus and Simon. <33 It makes me so happy that our tastes continue to align.
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on 2014-12-11 11:16 am (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 11:31 am (UTC)no subject
on 2014-12-11 11:58 am (UTC)And characters! I love your description of moral courage; I feel exactly the same way, and was actually writing about it earlier this year in my personal journal, again in relation to my favourite characters; I phrased it as 'an unassailable sense of honour', which I think is more or less the same thing (I am thinking of characters like Roland Deschain from Stephen King's Gunslinger series, and Arkady Renko from Martin Cruz Smith's books, both of whom I loooooove beyond all reason). I always think I go for characters who are brilliant and mercurial and full of flash and glamour, and I do - Sirius Black! - but I think that deep down honour is more important to me.
no subject
on 2014-12-11 09:04 pm (UTC)And, yes! I love this character type so much, and I don't know either of the ones you mention so I shall make a note for future reading. :) And on the subject, have I pressed Mathey and Lynes on you yet? I recommended the books to
no subject
on 2014-12-13 02:10 pm (UTC)I have acquired the first Mathey and Lynes book on the basis of this post and am about 1/3 of the way in and loving it so far! Hurrah!
here via friendfriends
on 2014-12-11 07:24 pm (UTC)I bought A death at the Dionysus Club to myself as a Christmas present. Christmas Day will be a good day...
no subject
on 2014-12-12 04:43 pm (UTC)Just thought this was funny as I hate the way women's shirts are always tailored for women who a) are significantly shorter and b) have rather less up top than me!!
You can still get beautiful smart dresses, that's what I wear to work. I like them with polkadots or green.
In fact, I have given up wearing trousers full stop.
no subject
on 2014-12-12 10:12 pm (UTC)Your black coat with copper lining sounds lovely!
I like clothes very much, in theory, but I'm not very good at them. I'm no good at shopping for myself - until I was 18 my mother bought my clothes (dragging me around the shops to choose things and try them on, but paying for them), which has unfortunately left me with a strong disinclination to go shopping unless told that I have to (and it's never fun. It's always "You need X item of clothing; we need to go and find something suitable") and also to spend money on anything more expensive than a book. (I can buy many books in one go without a qualm; buying one reasonable-quality item of clothing is just Too Much Money to spend at once.) I also hate getting up and dressed and ready in the mornings. Consquently, I wear M&S jeans and tops I have had for ten years that are faded and baggy, and Clarks shoes that are practical and which I wear until they fall apart. I like looking nice, but the effort it requires is not something I feel up to.
Speaking of Toby Ziegler as moral compass, I just watched the episode "Here TOday", and Toby getting told that he thought he was morally superior to the President. MAYBE HE IS, JED.
The thing that’s my number one thing, though: characters who have to do a thing, because, ultimately, there are no good choices left.
One instance of this which is much darker - finding that you've gradually put yourself in a position where moral courage is no longer possible, and all choices are abhorrent - is Frobisher in Torchwood: Children of Earth. It is horribly depressing, but I find it compelling because that's how things happen sometimes; you make choices that seem like the only things you can do, which aren't necessarily huge and bad in themselves, but which lead to you boxing yourself in and all hope being gone. (Lupine Wonse in Guards! Guards! is another example of this - somehow, the choices that seemed reasonable at the time have led to an inescapable nightmare.) It is a grim trope, but one which I am fond of all the same.
Code Name Verity: one of the few books that has made me cry on a train.
no subject
on 2014-12-12 10:16 pm (UTC)Ha, I have problem a) but not b) - tops are made for women much taller than me, so necklines always plunge far too low and show off my bra, but they are also made for less-busty women. Things that fit over the chest are far too long and have massive shoulders and waists (seriously, clothes designers, there are women who wear 30HH bras and are short and narrow-shouldered! I am one!).