raven: image of India on a globe (politics - india)
[personal profile] raven
Some time ago, I promised to make a post on White Privilege And How I Don't Have It. I probably ought to make entries about other things first - What My Degree Has Done For Me, for one, and also The Visit of OMG 1.875 - but a couple of things have happened on two successive days to make me want to make this post first. These are not big things. They are not things of any note at all. And yet, etc.

Firstly, yesterday [livejournal.com profile] luminometrice and I went shopping, and we were wandering around Boots picking up make-up and putting it down, and I was rhapsodising about my love for eye glitter, and liquid eyeliner, and, indeed, my love for eye make-up in general. I don't wear eyeshadow, though, I said. It's all in silly pastel colours that don't look good on me. In fact, realising this not for the first time, it's all made for white people.

Secondly, my very favourite leather sandals gave up the ghost yesterday afternoon and I went barefoot into town this morning; consequently, I had to stick plasters on my heels if I wanted to keep on walking. The plasters are "flesh coloured". They are at least three shades lighter than my flesh, and merely look ridiculous.

These are small things. They're nicely highlighed in Peggy McIntosh's Invisible Knapsack framework; white privilege, she writes, is not just contained in single incidents, but "invisible systems conferring dominance on [one] group." This doesn't mean, of course, that these aren't very small incidents, but it is true that they are part of a greater system, so to speak. The funny thing is, I read that list and find lots of statements that aren't true for me, but that I had never noticed until I read that list. Of course, people of my race aren't represented in the media I read. Of course, the "person in charge" of an establishment, if I ask to see her, is never someone of my race. Of course people ask me to speak for my entire racial group on occasion.

The one that I have been aware of for the longest is: "When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is."

Because, yes. At school, I was not taught my own history. The obvious thing to object is that of course I wasn't taught Indian history in a suburban British school, and it's a terrible, lacklustre argument, but even if we give it credence, I can then say, well, it was my ancestors' systematic exploitation that sustained the British Empire. Why did this not come up in twentieth-century British history?

And, in addition, I occasionally scandalise my nearest and dearest by professing to never having read a novel published before 1900. A lot of this is, I must say, because my reading tastes simply don't tend that way; what I have read pre-1900, I have usually not enjoyed, ergo I don't seek any more out. But part of it is that, well, another book about historical white people, hurrah. I can't read my own literature pre-1900 because I only read English, and it's only after 1900 that I can read Tagore and Narayan if I want to.

I also occasionally irritate my nearest and dearest by being disproportionately angry about the fact that Sainsbury's supermarkets have an aisle devoted to "ethnic foods". This makes me hopping mad because it marginalises, trivialises and banalises an entire world's worth of cultures, including my own. Also, it's really bloody offensive. Another example of something minor - but one minor thing is minor, and lots of them, not so much.

And, well. There are more complex levels to it. You see, this is an invisible knapsack I don't have, but there are lots that I do have. I'm Oxford-educated, the child of well-off, professional parents, the current instantiation of an old and high-caste family. So if I, who should by rights be as little affected by institutional racism as anyone could possibly be, still am affected - then, well, I wonder what it's like for all the people who aren't lucky enough to be in my position. I couldn't speak for those people, but I wonder.

And a converse: I'm pretty well assimilated. I'm grumpy on Christmas Day, I think the British notion of washing-up is ridiculous (and I used to get into trouble at school for this; it's odd, but I suffered a lot more from my lack of white privilege when I was in kindergarten than at any other time), but I'm pretty well assimilated. And this raises a whole set of other problems. Because another lot of privilege I don't have is, for lack of a better term, Orthopraxic Cultural Assimilation Privilege (yes, terrible term, sorry), because that works both ways. For this, I give you one example: [livejournal.com profile] shimgray and I are both quite normal geeky people. We wander around town being geeks. Our only notable feature, which has been commented on elsewhere, is a slightly comedic height difference. But when we wander around town together, one thing I notice over and over: other Indian people look at me funny. Isn't that a gloriously vague thing to say? But it's true, regardless. Other people of my ethnic group disapprove of the extent of my assimilation; other people of my ethnic group disapprove of my choices; other people of my ethnic group disapprove of the fact that I'm not with someone of that self-same ethnic group. And it made me wonder - when was the last time I saw a couple who were of two different ethnic backgrounds? Not recently. I mean, of course in our lovely Western liberal society it shouldn't be anything of note. But how common is it, really?

And, yes - if I had been born and lived in a place where part of my identity did not have to be constructed by otherness, distance, diaspora, and that vague thought that home is not the place I've spent my entire life, then this wouldn't be an issue. But I wasn't and haven't and this is an issue. And it is especially an issue when I engage in debate, here, online and elsewhere - because I will always be open to accusations of taking it "personally", I will always wonder that myself. In fact, my policy until very recently was to never engage in debate about race, because it is not only a matter of academic debate to me, and I can't trust myself to hold it to that level - and because I hate it when other people use anecdote instead of argument. But if the argument itself concerns invisible privilege, I'm open to being swayed. So here it is, this is what I mean when I talk about it.

And, finally. If anyone comments to tell me that flesh-coloured plasters aren't the same colour as white flesh, either, you are wilfully missing the point in a really quite offensive way. I am quite willing to explain it again, but I would rather not.
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on 2008-06-08 10:44 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] lizzip.livejournal.com
Thank you for saying this.

(Is it playing Oppression Olympics if I note that I don't see many gay couples, either? Um. I don't mean it to be. I mean it in a things-that-seem-unusual-that-*shouldn't*-be way, if you see what I mean. I'm not sure that makes it better. I'll shut up now, though, before I say anything else offensive. Thank you again.)

on 2008-06-09 12:09 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
You're welcome; and I think it's not quite comparable. Shim and I know that we are unlikely to receive abuse - I mean, funny looks are one thing, but we don't have to fear for our safety - and so, we're probably more likely to be perceived as a couple. And, also, even if a queer couple doesn't hide their affection, they're still less likely to be perceived as a couple in a heteronormative society, you know? So there's a reporting bias there.

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on 2008-06-08 10:55 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] zed92uk.livejournal.com
I don't have anything constructive to add, but was just wondering out of curiosity, what is it about the Gritish notion of washing up that you find ridiculous.

on 2008-06-09 02:33 am (UTC)
jessikast: (Default)
Posted by [personal profile] jessikast
I am curious about this too.

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on 2008-06-08 11:02 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] casirafics.livejournal.com
And it made me wonder - when was the last time I saw a couple who were of two different ethnic backgrounds? Not recently.

I see them all the time, but it's disproportionately skewed toward white-guy-with-Asian-girlfriend (usually Japanese or Chinese), and that carries its own set of baggage in so many ways....
Edited on 2008-06-08 11:03 pm (UTC)

on 2008-06-08 11:16 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Heh, I guess I should clarify on that one; I definitely mean here and now in my life in a southern English city. I quite understand it's not the case everywhere.

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on 2008-06-08 11:04 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] hips-lips-tits.livejournal.com
on the subject of couples of different ethnic backgrounds.. i think that is just as much the fault of the respective backgrounds as it is anyone else's.

for example, and this is trite and played out and whatever else but i'm going to use it because it's still relevant, especially within a lot of people i know. i think it goes for a lot of instances, though.

i'm white. obviously. but i am not racist, i just hate stupid people, and i make that known. i was recently asked out by a black man that i work with. that's fine, other than the fact that he's almost twice my age, it wasn't a big deal to me, because i don't care. however, he asked me if i had ever dated a black guy before, and i said no. he automatically assumed it was because i don't like black people in general. so who was racist in that situation? that's not the case at all. i like who i like, and have simply never met a black guy that i thought i would be interested in dating, for the most part we have nothing in common. (to be fair, though, i have nothing in common with most people i meet, male female black or white. you get the idea.)

or. from having friends who have been in this situation, it's usually the friends and family of each person in the couple that make an uproar about the differing ethnicities. HOWEVER, people are very quick to throw out the term 'racist' any other time, for example, if i don't hold the door for the white person behind me, i'm just rude. if i don't hold the door for the black person behind me, i'm not just rude i'm also a bigot. which is not the case. i'm merely rude.

i hope this is coming out the way i'm thinking it in my head, because it really is supposed to make sense.

what i am saying is, in short form, that a lot of people are quick to call others racist without realizing that they themselves are the ones actually continuing that particular cycle.

(and no, i am not trying to say that you are racist, because i don't think you ever could be. just making a comment on that area of your post.)

<3

on 2008-06-08 11:21 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] forthwritten.livejournal.com
Earlier today I was trying to work out how one is supposed to do interesting eye makeup. There's quite a significant difference between my eyes and the eyes of people in photo demonstrations: I have epicanthal folds, they don't. If I google it I get definitions and information about surgery to remove them.
ETA: The obvious response to be to ask my mother, but she doesn't have them. I suppose this says something about being mixed race - you inherit different things from different people.

As a Khasi Catholic it's difficult because I both am and am not Indian: for ease I say I'm Indian, but while I can eat laddoos like the best of them, there are huge differences between my culture and other cultures. I get annoyed when people want to discuss Hindu religion and culture with me - after all, I approach that in the same way a white person would. Let's talk about Ka Sngi and U Bnai and sacred groves instead?

And yes, they do seem to get upset when I don't conform to their expectations of what an Indian should be like.

I don't want to hijack your post - is this stuff interesting?
Edited on 2008-06-09 11:12 am (UTC)

on 2008-06-09 11:29 am (UTC)
ext_974: (Default)
Posted by [identity profile] vampire-kitten.livejournal.com
Earlier today I was trying to work out how one is supposed to do interesting eye makeup

*puts on make-up artist hat*

Depending on what you are trying to do, the general rule is take it higher, and don't worry so much about trying to add in shadow - if you want pretty and obvious take colours to half way between where fold becomes visable and eyebrow.

Damn, this is actually really hard to explain in general. Could you let me know what you were aiming for looks wise, and I'll see if I can explain?

Also you-tube is very good for finding make-up instructions. 5 second peek got me http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=p9FUOeiHBEU&feature=user - best trick is too look for someone that looks like you, and then see what they do.

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on 2008-06-09 01:32 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] rosariotijeras.livejournal.com
So...what are plasters?

on 2008-06-09 02:16 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] melodyunity.livejournal.com
Band-Aids.

on 2008-06-09 01:32 am (UTC)
jamethiel: A cat reaches its paws up towards you. Text: I'm in ur brains takin' ur smartz (TakinUrSmartz)
Posted by [personal profile] jamethiel
Mmm. Okay.

(Apart from saying that the current crop of makeup colours is WOEFUL. And that's speaking as a natural blonde. I wish you guys had Inglot over there. 70 shades! Just in eyeshadow alone! Most of them brilliant and intense and sparkly!

*drools and spends far too much money*)

I am actually part of an interracial couple. My partner is half-mauritian. He's not that strongly identified with his heritage (largely because he doesn't get on with his father, but that's another story). Oddly enough, *I* am the one who notices racism and gets really upset and wants to punch people. I don't know whether it's because he's used to it, or just a reflection of our respective temperaments. (He's mellow. I am not. It is a GOOD thing that he is mellow, otherwise the world would explode.)

It's weird. It wasn't until people started saying to me "And what is he?" (which elicited some very confused replies of "Um, an engineer. A doctoral student. A martial artist." I just didn't understand what people were trying to ask) that I realised that in other people's minds, it was an Issue.

Now, I glare at them meaningfully and say "Nice, smart, kind and beautiful and WHAT THE HELL MAKES YOU THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK ANYWAY." (*cough* I think I mentioned the thing about not being mellow before).

I--they would not ask if he was white. They would not ask if he had some form of disability. They would not ask if he was female. What the hell is it about race that makes other people think that it is their business?

on 2008-06-09 07:48 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] biascut.livejournal.com
Oddly enough, *I* am the one who notices racism and gets really upset and wants to punch people

I noticed that when I was going out with someone who wasn't white, too. He'd got used to blanking it or just instantly forgetting it, whereas I was all WHOLE NEW WORLD OF THINGS TO BE CROSS ABOUT.

(Also, I disagree that people wouldn't ask about disability - I think they totally would (people do about my best friend), and in exactly the same roundabout asking-but-not-asking way. Which doesn't make either OK!)

Thank you for posting this, [livejournal.com profile] loneraven.

(ETA: Gah, sorry, I think you've said before that you don't particularly like "not white" as an identifier, haven't you [livejournal.com profile] loneraven? Sorry! Said ex had an Indian dad and a white mum, to be specific and positive!)
Edited on 2008-06-09 07:58 am (UTC)

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on 2008-06-09 01:33 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] likethesun2.livejournal.com
If anyone comments to tell me that flesh-coloured plasters aren't the same colour as white flesh, either, you are wilfully missing the point in a really quite offensive way.

Oh, god. If anyone does that, can we all descend on him/her en masse and stab him/her?

(I really need to start getting used to gender-neutral pronouns, if only because the writer in me quails at the ugliness of that many "him/her"s. But that's a whole different privilege discussion!)

Anyway. This was fascinating, especially your point about the way circumstances conspire to make you unable to read your own pre-1900 literature. I hadn't even thought of that; I really don't even know much about pre-twentieth-century Indian literature. (Here insert my ongoing grumble about the American higher-education take on the study of literature.) And I apologize if in having this discussion with you, I've ever said anything offensive.

Lots of supermarkets here have "ethnic food" sections, too. I've always found it really, really odd, both ideologically and practically. (Really? There is some kind of logic in shelving tortillas by sriracha? IT ESCAPES ME.)

on 2008-06-09 12:31 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Ahhh, literature! Yes, it bothers me rather a lot. Because, of course, there is no reason why I shouldn't read and enjoy, oh, I don't know, Middlemarch, or the Bronte sisters' writing, or anything - but there's always a voice at the back of your head that says, never forget you were the noble savage and the scullery maid.

Tortillas as ethnic food? That cracks me up. Sainsbury's put rice and noodles next to, I don't know, tinned haggis. ARGH.

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on 2008-06-09 03:39 am (UTC)
ext_901: (Default)
Posted by [identity profile] foreverdirt.livejournal.com
I'm glad you wrote this. Thanks. I'll be reading further comments with interest.

on 2008-06-09 12:31 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
You're welcome, dear. :)

Wandered over here via Naraht

on 2008-06-09 06:39 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] vescoiya.livejournal.com
I also wanted to say thank you for writing this. I hope you got as much out of writing it as I did reading.

Re: Wandered over here via Naraht

on 2008-06-09 12:32 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
You're welcome, and thank you for reading.

on 2008-06-09 08:04 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] tmpe5t.livejournal.com
its an interesting conundrum - and yet another reason why i read your LJ. As usual a thought provoking look into another persons life which is utterly different from mine. My perspective is obviously different. I guess that white privelege is not really having to think about being white, to the extent that thinking about it makes me uncomfortable and anybody who does go on about being white is automatically suspect.

My perspective is mainly class based; i expect that there's a venn diagram somewhere with race, class, sexuality and gender identity which explains the whole thing. For instance having heard your voice on LJ voice posts, i would file you under 'posh', which overrides race in my mind, but then maybe thats my working class roots... For instance i have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about not being 'educated'. I will proudly trumpet not having a degree but being in a job which requires one, for instance.

And then there's gender and sexuality. On another LJ community that i'm on there are often discussions about cis-gendered-privilege. I really can't comment on 'male privilege' as although i suppose i have it, i would see it as 'masculine privilege', which i don't have. Female privilege exists as well, believe it or not. I notice that because people often think i'm female and treat me, well, better i suppose... :D

on 2008-06-09 12:59 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
White privilege is the many myriad small - and big - things that are made easy for white people, but such that the white people in question don't notice that they are being made easy. An "invisible knapsack" full of them, so to speak.

on 2008-06-09 09:14 am (UTC)
ext_6483: drawing of a golden hare in front of a silver moon (*rage* RANT RANT RANT)
Posted by [identity profile] sunlightdances.livejournal.com
Was in a shop recently looking at Dove 'Summer Glow Body Lotions' selection:
1. Light-skinned
2. Normal
3. Dark-skinned
And I nearly imploded with anger and frustration. Even more so at not being able to convince my father that there was anything wrong or objectionable about the above.

Also, since talking about this last, I've started brushing my teeth before breakfast, and washing up with running water. It suddenly occurred to me how entirely less gross/more efficient/etc. it was doing it in the way you described.

*squish* Nothing else to add, really.

on 2008-06-09 12:35 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Ahahaha, what? NORMAL? Oh, Dove. You fail. I'll have to look out for that one.

And, heee, I am glad your teeth-brushing and washing-up experiences have been so greatly improved! Seriously, thank you for reading and commenting, it's very much appreciated.

on 2008-06-09 09:22 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] clubhopper15.livejournal.com
Wow. This really made me stop and think. I used to feel the same way as you about reading pre-1900 literature, but for some reason lately I've been viewing it differently. I guess I've started to look at the way literature explores human nature - and how the way people behave is so similar, despite being from different cultures - rather than concentrating on the actual culture it describes. To be honest, most Kenyan literature really irritates me and I can't stand to read it because most of it is the same - "Oh those horrible white people came and colonized us and that's why despite decolonization we are still a backward country" - it's not really saying anything new and I can't help but laugh at the irony of the authors writing in English but then claiming that English is an evil language. Tossers. Literature by Indian authors, on the other hand, I just love. I feel that writers like Salman Rushdie and Sujata Bhatt manage to appreciate and embrace their culture without directly attacking the British, and I like that.
Other than the literature thing, I can totally identify with everything you've said.

on 2008-06-09 12:42 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
I don't think that I can't take anything from English literature, but I do feel that there's more to my own literary history, and it's lost to me. Of course, themes and ideas span cultures, I entirely take your point.

Would you not say, though, that there's a place within the canon for those writers who rail against their own oppression? Because they were oppressed - it would be strange if this theme didn't occur and recur in the literature they produce.

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on 2008-06-09 09:44 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] absinthe-shadow.livejournal.com
I'm really glad you made this post - I've sort of been looking forward to it at the back of my mind since you first mentioned it.

"Ethnic foods" is indeed mad. What sort of system would you prefer? M&S labels with the name of the cuisine, which is helpful for finding things, but I imagine the least prejudiced approach would be to organise entirely by food group. I would also like to note that I consider your method of washing up infinitely superior, and use it myself much of the time (it's much CLEANER, damn it!).

I've been pondering the idea of older novels which aren't entirely concerned with historical white people. One that you could try, very early indeed, is Aphra Behn's Oroonoko. It's a very problematic text about slavery: the messages are extremely mixed, some of them horrendous, and there's a great deal of exoticisation (Aphra Behn was white, there is speculation that she really travelled to the Americas, but little is known for certain about her life), but it's interesting from a literary and indeed sociological perspective. And the primary focus is certainly not on historical white people - I suppose it depends whether you feel you'd be able to stomach the unpleasant parts. I don't want to let you in for reading something you'd hate; on the other hand I think you'd find it an interesting if distressing experience. The overwhelming majority of recentish critical work on the book has been from a feminist and postcolonial theroetical perspective, because the text is so deeply involved with those ideas and problems.

on 2008-06-09 12:48 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Heh, thank you for reading. Er, food? Rice and noodles with bread and flour; soy sauce and chilli sauce with ketchup and pesto; garam masala with sage and oregano. You know, just staples and condiments and spices together, and suchlike. Argh, bloody, bloody middle-Englander Sainbury's.

(Hurrah for washing-up!)

And, thank you for the rec. I'm actually wandering into town now; I might drop in to Blackwell's. I would love to try reading it, at least.

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on 2008-06-09 10:23 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] sir-rosealot.livejournal.com
If I understand it correctly, I also use your method of washing-up! (If it is using the tap to do it rather than letting everything stagnate in an increasingly greasy tub of soapy water and then pulling it out and saying it is clean, which seems to be the more common method.)

Not-having-white-privilege is something that really frustrates me that I can't understand. I find it hard to communicate to men the million tiny little signals women see every day that say "you are other", and I hate knowing that for huge groups of people there are millions of other signals that say that that I can't see and probably help to create.

on 2008-06-09 12:51 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
It is indeed using the tap to do it. And yes, I do loathe greasy-dishwater method! :)

Aha, but. In knowing that you have white privilege - which is as far in this issue as a person with white privilege can probably go (although I'm open to argument on that point) - you're doing vastly better than most people, I must say. What I cannot abide is people who think racism is "over". ARGH, etc.

on 2008-06-09 10:51 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] anotherusedpage.livejournal.com
Randomly, I noticed the make-up thing go past on America's Next Top Model, recently. There was a thing about some female r and b singer releasing a range of make up for people with dark skin. (Ack, I'm having issues with wording because it was a whole range of non-white skin shades, and I'm very aware that every way I'm attempting to express it is assuming white as normal and anything else as other, vis 'darker', 'non-white'. Our language and cultural expectations are really hard to get away from, even when you're aware of what you're doing.) Anyway, it made me think about about marginalisation, and conforming to standards of beauty, and... yeah.

on 2008-06-09 11:33 am (UTC)
ext_974: (Default)
Posted by [identity profile] vampire-kitten.livejournal.com
And not because I'm obsessed with ANTM... it's the Cover Girl Queen collection by Queen Latifa.

http://www.covergirl.com/products/collections/queen/

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on 2008-06-09 10:56 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] louiselux.livejournal.com
Thank you so much for this post, and also for the link to the invisible knapsack.

on 2008-06-09 12:54 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
You're very welcome. :)

on 2008-06-09 11:15 am (UTC)
chiasmata: (Default)
Posted by [personal profile] chiasmata
I am another person who has been swayed by your argument about washing up! At least some of the time, anyway...

Seriously, thank you for making this post. xx

on 2008-06-09 12:54 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Heee! You're welcome. :)

on 2008-06-09 11:34 am (UTC)
ext_974: (Default)
Posted by [identity profile] vampire-kitten.livejournal.com
Re: getting better colours of eyeshadow in Oxford (I don't know if you would actually be interested, but just in case)

Celebrations have a nice range of bright pressed powers called Grimas downstairs (I use the red for a blusher on stage shows), and Superdrug's Barry M range do lots of loose powders in a larger range of colours (with glitter! and shiny!)

on 2008-06-09 12:55 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
You know, that's where Maria and I ended up - making "oooh!" noises at the glittery loose powders. One of them, "Pink Gold", really did look like it was designed for people like me; it looked all wrong on white skin and made me look like a fairy. It made me happy.

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Posted by [identity profile] vampire-kitten.livejournal.com - on 2008-06-09 02:17 pm (UTC) - Expand

on 2008-06-09 11:55 am (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] marymac.livejournal.com
Further eye-shadow/glitter nerdery:
My little sister's Sudanese housemate has a deep and abiding addiction to Benefit and Urban Decay eye glitters - apparently if you apply them to damp skin they stick better and show up really well. They are, however, bloody expensive, so your mileage may vary.

Wandering back onto the topic, I see a fair amount of mixed couples about, but we have a pretty massive international student contingent, and an exploding immigrant percentage so its not really surprising (apart from the fact that people are crazy enough to move here). Plus the established Chinese community.

on 2008-06-09 12:04 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
I am a big, big fan of Urban Decay. They're not cheap, but they look amazing, especially the metallics, on properly olive skin. I love them.

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Posted by [identity profile] marymac.livejournal.com - on 2008-06-09 12:18 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com - on 2008-06-09 12:21 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Posted by [identity profile] marymac.livejournal.com - on 2008-06-09 12:35 pm (UTC) - Expand

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on 2008-06-09 01:20 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] amchau.livejournal.com
Earlier I wrote a long reply to this post, which rambled at ignorant and probably offensive length (in my defense, it started with an apology) about Indian literature and the idiocy of hiding colonial idiocy and my habit of thinking of 'geek' as an ethnicity (such that to me, you and Shim aren't from different backgrounds any more than me and Alex), and how what seems most unfair in your life is that your linguistic/social culture is mis-matched with what people expect your culture to be when they look at you and guess. But it is too late to recover it now, and probably not worthwhile, though I will expand those points if you are curious.

I think I'll stick with the observation that what seems to me especially mad is that my local Sainsbury's puts 'vegetarian' and 'low-fat' as separate sections, alongside 'Indian', 'Chinese', 'Italian', etc. What happens to people who want low-fat vegetarian Indian food, for example?

on 2008-06-10 09:56 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Sushi would seem to fall particularly afoul of that characterisation, I can't help but observe.

"Geek" as ethnicity? I really, really couldn't get behind that. "Geek" is a fun term, an identity, certainly, a reclaimed word, a defined grouping of people - but I really don't think it can be placed alongside ethnicity and race.

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Posted by [identity profile] amchau.livejournal.com - on 2008-06-16 02:47 pm (UTC) - Expand

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on 2008-06-09 01:42 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] slasheuse.livejournal.com
Very very interesting post, and I hope you find the subsequent discussion interesting and worthwhile too - also that some of the makeup suggestions are handy. The make-up thing is probably the one I know most about (Meera Syal does a really hilarious piece on it, I hope it's on YouTube somewhere), based on my mum's experiences as a make-up artist (lighting brown and black complexions presented a lot of challenges in the 70s/80s because there was much less stage make-up available) and of that of her friend who was mixed race and went from being a wig/make-up artist to an actor.

on 2008-06-10 09:57 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Meera Syal makes me happy by existing, I swear. And I do think the make-up thing is both a trivial annoyance and a fundamental symptom of white privilege. It's odd, how these things work.

on 2008-06-09 02:29 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] just-the-ash.livejournal.com
Hey Iona! What do all Indian people, covering the entire subcontinent, think of aspartame? *ducks thrown TARDIS*

This is part of why, though white as paper myself, I have become so intensely focused on African American and other Afro-Diaspora literature: Item one of many is watching numerous of my students suffer from Only Black Person In the Room Syndrome, and stay consequently silent in class. (This is frequently the case even if there are, say, three or four African Americans in a class of 23, most of whom are white and maybe one or two of whom might be Pacific Asian.)

One of my students last fall term was from a rather poor section of Philadelphia, and is black, and was indeed the Only Black Person in the Room in that class. I once asked the class to write about backhanded compliments or non-compliments they'd received in the past, and this young woman had actually been told, "You're from Philadelphia? But you're so well-spoken!" -- said with disbelief. And by "well-spoken," of course, the ignorant person meant "not conspicuously using African American Vernacular English."

The only thing I do like about the special ghettoized food section in supermarkets is that the Spanish-labeled spices are often quite a bit cheaper than the ones in the Official Spice Section. Well, that and being able to get microwavable, shelf-stable servings of palak paneer, but I digress.

on 2008-06-09 03:13 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] lizzip.livejournal.com
The only thing I do like about the special ghettoized food section in supermarkets is that the Spanish-labeled spices are often quite a bit cheaper than the ones in the Official Spice Section.

Actually, I've just been set wondering - what about the Kosher section? I'm of [some] Jewish background, and there are obvious ways in which having a Kosher section of the supermarket *would* be useful, but given that there are also some foods that I think of as Definitely Jewish that congregate there, I'm interested in opinions on this now...

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Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com - on 2008-06-10 09:59 pm (UTC) - Expand

on 2008-06-09 08:15 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] hathy-col.livejournal.com
Yeah, we have a 'world foods' section in Morrisons which baffles the hell out of me, mostly because it comprises everything from curry sauce to pasta. In fact, now I've thought about that, I'm going to go back and see what the hell occupies the other areas because where on earth is the rest of the food coming from if not from the world?

I have nothing else to add, really, other than that this was interesting and has released an urge to go to Morrisons and see what other odd classifications they have.

on 2008-06-10 10:00 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
YES. That bothers me too. World foods, really? Well, where the hell does everything else come from?

on 2008-06-09 09:30 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] stupidore.livejournal.com
For the first time the other day I noticed with some amusement that our branch of Morrison's has a 'world foods' aisle, which just so happens to be the aisle which holds nothing more exotic than fahita (sp?) kits, sweet and sour sauces and curry sauces.
A more British collection of world foods I don't think I could conceive of.

on 2008-06-10 10:01 pm (UTC)
Posted by [identity profile] loneraven.livejournal.com
Heh, yes! And I love how yours and Colleen's minds seem to be working on identical lines on this one.
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