EU law, and then a not-very-neat segue into blogging against racism

[raven]

The European Court of Justice once described British Gas as "an emanation of the state". I do not find this at all hilarious. No. I did not giggle. Emanation of the state. Not at ALL funny.

Also, the key case establishing the doctrine of supremacy was Costa v. ENEL. "What happened in this case?" asked my EU tutor. "We all know, yes? An Italian man did not wish to pay for his electricity! This is correct!"

Yeah... I kind of love that major principles of law arise because one very stubborn man did not wish to pay eighty thousand lire for his electricity bill. I also kind of love my EU tutor, who is an affable Greek dude with a very funky lip piercing and a very resolutely pragmatic approach to teaching. "You do not understand? I explain it from now until tomorrow morning. Yes." I do not love EU law, having failed on numerous occasions to explain exactly how deeply, fundamentally, viscerally boring the law of the European Union is, because I sort of run out of adverbs and start babbling incoherently about the seventeenth boring secretariat of the boring Administrative Agency for Utter Tedium. So boring I literally cannot tell you.

From all of this, it may perhaps be deduced that today, I went to class. I didn't go in the morning - small steps, small steps! - but I went in this afternoon and worked and read and participated. It was almost fun. I put up my hand at one point and said, to the gentleman who was talking, that his comment was facile and unsophisticated and reflected a naive faith in the incorruptibility of EU institutions. Well, what I actually said was, "I keep feeling like there should be stirring music playing in the background of you talking."

And, it was amazing, people did not laugh at me or tell me I am thick or awful. Instead a couple of guys launched into an impromptu chorus of "Land of Hope and Glory". And then I said something else not very profound, to whit, the textbook author, whom people keep referring to as "he" is in fact a woman. Go me, etc. I went to class! What an achievement.

Mmmn, what else. My doctor is suggesting I change my meds at some unspecified point in the future, but we're working on that. Small steps. Tonight, I am going to see the Vagina Monologues. Tomorrow I get talk-therapied. None of these things are very interesting. What else.

Oh, yes, forthwritten and I are once again a two-women crusade trying to explain to the world that white people don't really have it that hard when they're excluded from discussions about race. It's come up in connection to ibarw, which has less white contributors this time around than it did last time. And... well. You know when you're very tired of making the same point over and over? Well, here it is again: I am a brown person, and I do not need white approval for my opinions on race. When I blog against racism, I don't care all that much about including white people in the discussion. Yeah, sometimes - sometimes education is the purpose of what I say and write, and sometimes, no, often, inclusion is best. But no one talking about race from the brown side of the paradigm has to set out the red carpet for white people, and they're crass to demand it. (As I said to forthwritten earlier, I must be feeling better! I'm picking fights with people on the internet!)

And... peripherally related to that. A small thing that I keep meaning to write about, because I am mildly crazy. When you see someone peering through a sheet with eyeholes in it, what do you think? I know what I think. One of my housemates has acquired from somewhere a Beanie Baby toy of a panda covered in a sheet with eyeholes. It is sitting on our mantelpiece and is scary as fuck. Well, it's supposed to be a Hallowe'en toy, I later discovered. It has a little basket that says "trick or treat". But. Yeah. I have so far resisted calling it "Ku Klux Klanda" out loud...

In good news, ghd hair straighteners are no longer explicitly racist. Hurrah. I think.

I go away to read contract, yesyes.

Comments

[sir-rosealot.livejournal.com]

Re. the sheet with holes- I would think of a ghost because the hood is not pointed, BUT the house over the road from us has a pointy tree which for some reason they keep under a sort of cloth sheath, and several times a day I think it is a member of the KKK peering over the fence.

[emily-shore.livejournal.com]

White people being wrong about the internet on race? Say it ain't so! Where is this complaining going on?

[deathbyshinies.livejournal.com]

*bottom lip wobbles*

But... but that's mean! I only want you to stop and painstakingly go through the most basic principles of white privilege for my especial benefit every single time you try to discuss race and racism, oh, and hold my hand and assure me you're not talking about me specifically, reallyhonestlyreally whenever you try to mention white people being racist! How can you expect anyone to understaaaaaand if you're going to be so... so... reverse-racist all the time?!?!?

*flounces off in a sulk*

*sneaks back to hug you and say 'congratulations!' for talking up in class*

[amchau.livejournal.com]

How I wish my seminars would launch into impromptu choruses. Or possibly become a full-blown musical episode.

I've just commented to forthwritten re. IBARW so will refrain here.

Re. the Ku Klux Klanda, I have watched Jerry Springer the Opera too often and am now visualising it tap-dancing. I think both the ghost reading and the Ku Klux Klan reading are valid--I have Willow in the BtVS Halloween episode as my first association with the description "someone peering through a sheet with eyeholes in it", but the Klan aren't far behind, so it's easy to imagine that for other people they'd be reversed.

My friend Dave claims that contract law is fun. Is he right?

[rosariotijeras.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I don't see the problem with white people at least being present for discussions about race. I think white people have far, far, FAR less of a right to comment on such issues, but race issues are a ginormously huge issue where I live (and this may be a perspective issue) and it would be remiss to not be aware of and maybe participate in the dialogue. I don't want a red carpet and please, put me down if I ever do demand one. But I find discussions about race to be important and interesting, and I love to listen. I also think that a lot of the issues raised by race discussions are things that everyone should be aware of, white, black, brown or purple.

Does it irritate you to see white people campaign for racial equality? Attend rallies, etc.? I've always found it a little awkward to see Rich White Person X campaigning for help in Predominately Not White and Disadvantaged Country Y. But does their race make them any less of a 'global citizen', or give them any less of a right to find their cause vital?

(please don't hurt me.)

[nerves-patterns.livejournal.com]

I like what rosariotijeras has to say, and I agree, although a little less eloquently. XD I think that maybe we white people should just shut up and listen for a while, as we never seem to stop running our mouths and sharing our all-important opinions. It might be more important for us to begin by really seriously listening to opinions and points of view other than our own, as many people don't seem to be able to do that yet. (Although I definitely think we need to be present, and included in, the discussion - but these discussions shouldn't, and can't, be held on our terms. I may not be able to contribute, but listening educates me.)

Some thoughts from my Contemporary African-American Lit class from last year (where in a class of 25-ish, only the teacher and four students were persons of color, which made for interesting and profound discussion dynamics), and from the country that still panics when we think about putting someone with a funny name/funny face in charge. (Can you tell my election-related irritation frustration rage is being suppressed with lots of shiny happy thoughts?)

[ktroo85.livejournal.com]

Re the sheet with holes a third intrepretation for those from spain would be that it is wearing religious dress. http://www.thinkspain.com/news-spain/10791/easter-in-spain

take a look at that link and see what i mean. Though if you google spain easter or something similar you will find better. i know that picture has them in black but the parade I saw had people wearing the white version so you can imagine what that looked like - especially as the parade was at night.

[balthaser.livejournal.com]

ghds were racist?

[clubhopper15.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what was racist about ghds? I'm curious. Good on you for going to class and making such a good impression :)

[deathbyshinies.livejournal.com]

I think loneraven might be referring to this advertising campaign (http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/05/ghd_dark_or_pur), where 'dark' and 'pure' are constructed as opposites in a problematic way. I could be wrong - there's a lot of other political stuff going on to do with Black women and hair straightening - but that is the only immediate issue I can think of that specifically has to do with ghd brand straighteners.

[janne.livejournal.com]

Ghosts? Then again, I don't think we ever got the pointy hooded kind of people over here.

Also: In local news, an african-norwegian complained about the racism of the western world in general and white people in specific. Shortly after, I read that a public institution had decided one was not allowed to use the term 'western' in writing because it was demeaning to non-west... er, people not from "Europa, USA, Australia and Europe outside the EU" (or something like that). So now my brain hurts.

[liminereid.livejournal.com]

They have purple ones as well and they are fucking terrifying. I thought they were Klansman at 9. I really did. But those hoods are meant to be scary - they are inquistioners' robes

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

Yep, it's what she said. They were being marvellously, tastefully marketed as "dark" and "pure".

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

The problem is that white people, with white privilege, are used to being included in discussion. And people who are not white are used to being made uncomfortable around white people. So you can have white people in the room with the discussion, and the discussion will necessarily have to be different: brown people will not feel safe to talk about their issues, for example. Maybe it's simple fear of racism or lack of understanding. Maybe it's because they suffer from the internalised racism that makes some people, myself included, find it hard not to have to justify my views in white-people lexis, rather than my own. And sometimes you just prefer shorthand. Sometimes it's more fun, and more rewarding, to knock about and laugh among ourselves, without feeling like we have to explain our thought processes to people who don't come from our side of the paradigm. And so... sometimes, yes, educating white people is good. But sometimes the needs of people who aren't white, the needs that historically haven't been respected, are more important.

Does it irritate you to see white people campaign for racial equality?

No, of course not. But it is not about those people. Their causes are all very nice, and I'm sure they do good things, but beyond the superficial level, it's not about them.

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

Although I definitely think we need to be present, and included in, the discussion

No. White people make a safe space unsafe. Like I said to rosariotijeras above, sometimes educating white people is a good idea. But it is part of the structure of white privilege to assume you're welcome in every discussion. When these discussions are for people who aren't white to talk about their experience of not being white, there are often very good reasons not to include white people: sometimes the participants just feel unsafe, and that's all there is to it. Sometimes, people feel that they have to justify themselves to white people or use white-people lexis and discouse instead of our own (o hai, internalised racism!) or that in inviting white people to the discussion, we implicitly endorse the thought that a discussion needs white people involved to be valuable or legitimate. And sometimes, it's just easier. Sometimes I would rather knock about and laugh with forthwritten about our collective experience of not having white privilege, and maybe the discussions we have would be very instructive to white people, but they are not for white people, they are for us. They are for us to feel better about living in a white-privileged world.

[nerves-patterns.livejournal.com]

Point in case of why it's better for us to listen (and not necessarily be present - maybe listen in some less creepy, intrusive, eavesdropping sense). Thank you.

ETA: A question I don't have the answer to:

Sometimes I would rather knock about and laugh with forthwritten about our collective experience of not having white privilege, and maybe the discussions we have would be very instructive to white people, but they are not for white people, they are for us. They are for us to feel better about living in a white-privileged world.

So how and when does the white-privileged world end?

(I edited this comment twice. For real, I'm done now.)

[subservient-son.livejournal.com]

There is a South Park episode where Cartman dresses up as Hitler for Halloween. When the school kicks up a fuss, he gets a ghost costume instead, but looks like a meber of the KKK.

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

Okay, look at it this way.

I belong to some female-only spaces. Many of the women there identify as feminist, but the fact that they want a female-only space doesn't make them any less feminist or any less committed to dismantling the systems of power that make it harder for women.
What they do want is a place to discuss how to survive work when your co-workers don't treat you fairly because you're female, what to do if you face domestic violence, how to use contraception safely, what happens in a smear test and what to do if you might be pregnant (among other things). These discussions probably wouldn't happen if the space was open to men as well. I'm sure the discussions would be enlightening to men, but I think women would be less willing to discuss such things if every post about a rubbish husband or boyfriend was met with "but not all men are bad!" or they had to coach men through basic gender politics with every post.

And this is what it's like being non-white. If you make a post about race, you end up having to talk about basics, or someone will tell you that you're imagining things, or someone will pipe up with "but not all white people are like that!", or someone will tell you about being bullied by the black kids at school...it gets really wearying.

loneraven and I are both involved with combating racism, but sometimes we want to talk about things without having to educate people at the same time. The fact that we don't always want to be people's tutors on race issues is not incompatible with wanting to dismantle white privilege.

[nerves-patterns.livejournal.com]

Hi, forthwritten.

Thank you for explaining it to me in this light - I understand, as much as I can as a white person. (And I mean that with all sincerity - no sarcasm, I assure you. There are things that I think men can't understand about women, to use your example, and that definitely applies here.) But in some kind of "ideal world, ideal discussion" situation, is it ever okay to bring white people into the conversation - or will there always be conversations that need to exclude white people to retain the safety of the safe space (as loneraven put it)? Can white people ever get past the point where they need to have the basics explained to them?

My question to loneraven wasn't sarcastic either - it was a sincere question. When does white privilege end, and what can white people do to actively end it?

I hope you don't think I'm being rude, or asking obtuse questions. I genuinely want to hear your opinion (and that of anyone else reading this who wants to comment), and I thank you in advance.

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

It's late and I need sleep, so I'll direct you to my own post on this (the most recent public one).

"But in some kind of "ideal world, ideal discussion" situation, is it ever okay to bring white people into the conversation - or will there always be conversations that need to exclude white people to retain the safety of the safe space"

I think the problem is that it's not ideal in any way. There's a huge power difference between whites and non-whites - the *world* I live in is a white space. As such, I relish the chance to have a space away from that and have discussions where certain knowledge is taken for granted and where I can celebrate my non-white identity rather than try to blend in. If I make jokes about dhania chutney, loneraven falls about laughing; with white people, it needs a long and tedious explanation.

"Can white people ever get past the point where they need to have the basics explained to them?"

I don't know. I'm not white. I don't understand why people don't educate themselves instead of waiting for someone to explain it for them, but that might be the Indian work ethic.

"When does white privilege end, and what can white people do to actively end it?"

I think the important thing is recognising what forms privilege takes and then trying to challenge your own privileged behaviour. Feeling you have a right to be included in every discussion, even if your presence means it's no longer a safe space, is a form of privilege and this is why we reacted with disbelief and slight irritation.

Personally, I'm a bit cynical about it. I do have some white friends with whom I can have a reasonably intelligent conversation about race and racism, but they're a minority. Talking about race to most white people makes me want to kick bins, if I'm perfectly honest.

[nerves-patterns.livejournal.com]

First, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. I realize this is very much an example of why there needs to be a non-white space where these issues don't need to be explained.

Feeling you have a right to be included in every discussion, even if your presence means it's no longer a safe space, is a form if privilege and this is why we reacted with disbelief and slight irritation.

Let me apologize for creating this situation within my initial comment, for you and loneraven and any other readers here. I suggested that white people need to be included in the discussion because I assumed that all white people both need and want to be informed, educated, and open to every single other race and culture - which is a naive assumption and, as you've pointed out, obviously (and unfortunately) isn't true. That was my mistake, and again, I'm sorry for how that came across. But the potential to be educated (and to continue being educated, through such discussions as these) and the desire to do so is all I intended to imply.

Thanks again for the comments, forthwith.

[nos4a2no9.livejournal.com]

1. Klu Klux Klandra really should be uttered aloud at least once. And yeah, I really don't get the appeal of ghosts. *shudders*

2. Word to the rest of this, from the boredom of EU Law (what the hell?) to issue of white people entering into discussions about race. I just...yeah.

[gamesiplay.livejournal.com]

And people who are not white are used to being made uncomfortable around white people.

Hey, just wanted to say, this--and really the whole paragraph in general--really crystallized the issue for me, and helped me better understand why and how current dialogue about race is being carried on. (Not that it's your job to, y'know, clarify race dialogue for white people! I'm just sayin', helpful side benefit of your saying smart stuff is that I get a little less dumb. :D)

[amchau.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why people don't educate themselves instead of waiting for someone to explain it for them, but that might be the Indian work ethic.

I don't know either, but I'm presuming this sort of behaviour in other fields was the reason that the internet invented the terms GIYF and RTFM.

If the analogy with feminism holds true, I'd guess that those white friends with whom you can discuss race are ones who have earned a level of trust and displayed a previous level of knowledge suitable to the discussion at hand--this is my experience of men with whom I can discuss women's issues. Is that your experience? To explain that, I've sometimes used the analogy of formal education: just as you wouldn't let an A-level student join a postgrad seminar (and if they did, you'd think that they'd be confused and hold back the discusion), so there are some coversations about race/gender/other issue x which require a certain level of knowledge to join.

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

I would love to tell people to RTFM, but there isn't a manual.

"If the analogy with feminism holds true, I'd guess that those white friends with whom you can discuss race are ones who have earned a level of trust and displayed a previous level of knowledge suitable to the discussion at hand--this is my experience of men with whom I can discuss women's issues. Is that your experience?"

Yes - pretty much. I'm not against white people, and occasionally I've asked a white friend to respond to something because I was too fed up to do so myself. However, they've earned that trust.
Your analogy with academia works up to a point - of course there are conversations where you need a certain amount of knowledge to join in, but I think you'd have to say that the postgrads won't talk about certain important things if the A-level student was there, or that the presence of the A-level student would mean that postgrads will feel annoyed and betrayed that their postgrad space has been opened up to people who haven't earned it and other things that reflect loneraven's comment here (http://loneraven.livejournal.com/605159.html?thread=5617895#t5617895).

[tmpe5t.livejournal.com]

"I don't understand why people don't educate themselves instead of waiting for someone to explain it for them, but that might be the Indian work ethic."


Easy. The only white people who actually think about being white, are racists. This would be the white privilege thing presumably, where its not necessary to think about race as you're the default, in the same way that a random person is often 'he'. So it effectively 'feels' racist to think about being 'white' because effectively if someone starts going on about being white that generally means that they're going to say something racist in the next few sentences.

I think the panda's meant to be a ghost. We used to do that when i was little, we were being ghosts off scooby doo. We'd never heard of the kkk... Except my mum wouldn't let me cut eyeholes in the sheet, cue lots of falling over... 'whooo, i'm a ghost, argh, thud!'

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

Ack. That would give me nightmares. Urgh.

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

In the ibarw post asking for critique, people are talking about how they wish more white people could be involved. Mmmm.

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

*snuggle* you = awesome. We should have a chat about racism and colonialism sometime, you know. :)

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

I saw Jerry Springer: the Opera at the National Theatre in its first run. It was kind of awesome. Actually, it was really awesome. Especially the tap-dancing.

Contract law is great fun! It's very logical and interesting.

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

Heh, glad to hear it. I iz smrt, me. :P

[amchau.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it be great if there was? Alas, I fear it could never exist and be complete, because the issues are so complex and ever-changing. There is Google, though, and there are blogs and websites and the like, so expecting people to do some self-education seems reasonable.

Yes, I see that my analogy is not complete (very few are!)--perhaps that sense of intrustion and stifled conversation would be reflected by something like a pupil (even a pupil who thinks they are a teacher, to reflect the feeling of entitlement?) entering a staff room, an otherwise safe space in which discussion rather than education is happening. Alternatively, maybe my fascination with analogies is not useful and these things are best explained in literal terms--if that's the case, I apologise for pursuing this line of conversation.

[amchau.livejournal.com]

Jerry Springer: The Opera is indeed really awesome. I'm sorry to say that I've never seen it live, but I've watched the DVD possibly slightly more often than is healthy (I know more of the words than I care to admit).

I'm pleased to hear that. The satisfaction of logic I can understand, but I haven't yet grasped how contracts can be all that interesting. (Let's face it: I barely managed to read the one I signed to rent the house, never mind someone else's!) If it interests you, though, that's what counts.

[deathbyshinies.livejournal.com]

I would like that! :D

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

I think you're a being a little harsh on yourself there. I think those are interesting ways to conceptualise it and do give a sense of the intrusive nature of it to people who don't understand it, but don't quite work because of the power structures. I'm not quite sure to communicate that though.

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

Apology accepted. You might find this (http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/607897.html) interesting - a more systematic view of how discussions about race and racism can be (and are) derailed.

[amchau.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. The problem of trying to explain things fascinates me endlessly as a writer and philosopher, so it's really interesting to me to discuss analogies like this. At the moment, I can't think of another which would be better--perhaps finding something which expresses the power structures would be a first step.

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

They used to come in two types: "pure" and "dark". Naturally, both were marketed with naked women. The dark ones were portrayed as "evil" and "wicked"; the "pure" ones, which were, of course, white, were angelic and lovely. Why hello subtext, etc.

[loneraven.livejournal.com]

Specially ghosts that look like the KKK! I mean, I just. Yeah.

EU law so DULL. White people being ignorant about race, SO IRRITATING. Rest of law continues interesting, thankfully. :)